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Chinese Five Arts => 3. Art of Life (Birthchart Analysis) => Si Zhu Ba Zi (SZBZ) 四柱八字 => Topic started by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 11:22:10 AM

Title: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 11:22:10 AM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Han on September 13, 2019, 11:38:14 AM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 11:46:19 AM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: anton8888 on September 13, 2019, 12:33:18 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 12:42:53 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: chary on September 13, 2019, 01:22:23 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: fan on September 13, 2019, 01:41:40 PM
My personal opinion, believe it or not, even if you're using the wrong technique but you're in a very good luck period, your reading will quite match with the querent and the querent will be happy. It happened to me many times in the old forum a long time ago when my ZWDS knowledge still incomplete. :P
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 01:57:28 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: BillionaireboyLam on September 13, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
Hi all @windwheel,
BaZi is the study of natural time and energies. Understanding natural time does have a lot to do with Astrology.
You have to understand bazi was created during the time before the modern clock was invented.
Modern timekeeping is not based on "natural time", the Sun doesn't always rise at 6am and set at 6pm.
Throughout the year the Sun rises in different time and set in different time.

You see the Earth rotates at different speed during different times of the year.
It also revolves in a elliptical orbit so during each month, it is either farther or closer to the Sun.
You see the Earth is closest to the Sun during the Month of Zi, and farthest from the Sun during Month of Wu.
The tracking of the sub-solar point is also very important for obvious reasons as the Ancient Chinese created the calendar to track the solstices and change of seasons.

All of these tracking points used in Ancient Chinese Calendar and subsequently BaZi is not based on North or South pole but the position of Earth.

BaZi is also very numerological, why is 戊戌 nayin Wood? Why does 甲己 combine?
These are all based on Chinese Numerological calculations.
That is why bazi is categorized as a 数术, and in Chinese when you get your bazi read it's called 算命, 算 is calculating.
Many people tend to forget this point.

If we use north,south bazi and rotate the month it doesn't match any of the calculations the ancient's have done.
That is why none of the methods and techniques work.

IMO i use same bazi for northern and southern Hemisphere but if your from Southern Hemisphere.
I would always incorporate other methods like facial reading,palmistry and Astrological Charts to confirm.

There is more then one strong method in Metaphysics BaZi is just one of those tools.

Astrological Wise, BaZi is just a timestamp or a birthdate, so of course if we know your bazi we know your birthdate, we also know your astrological positions.
There are also methods in QZSY to calculate the position of planets to their placement in the Chinese 28 constellations.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Gmuli on September 13, 2019, 02:18:23 PM
Hi.
We have been into this in great lengths in Jlims forum some time ago.

Its long to get into but it isn't just because of the "climate", its because of the light from the Sun, as the Solar Terms that make the peach blossom branches are calculated based on the solstices/equinoxes. As the seasons are inverted in the other hemisphere all logic suggest the month branches should be too.

However, even though it seems very logical to me, can't say anyone else agreed there. Yet we do have info that bazi practitioners in the other hemisphere invert the month pillar, but at the same time we have info for many that don't as well.

In my humble opinion every possible logic suggest that the month branch should be inverted(long to go into, very detailed explanations in there in multiple topics), however in practice I'm willing to agree it may be more accurate without inversion at this point, as we do look in many charts back then and it seems to be the case.

Why not inverting it when its based on the solstices/equinoxes I do not know. Some members provide very interesting possible explanations and I'm working with that, currently.

Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: slametbing on September 13, 2019, 02:48:10 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 03:12:50 PM
@BillionaireboyLam

Thanks for your reply.

@Gmuli

Thanks for your reply.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: existentialistalbert on September 13, 2019, 03:33:49 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Han on September 13, 2019, 04:02:27 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Gmuli on September 13, 2019, 04:19:57 PM
Lets look at the Solar Term dates from Honk Kong observatory for 2021.
http://www.weather.gov.hk/gts/astronomy/Solar_Term.htm
We should probably notice that the Solar Term that shows the start of Yin Tiger month branch, as well as the start of the year is in 3th February and not 4th.
(have to change it to 2021 to see)
Spring commences   3    / 2   22:59

It also shows a very exact time, to the minute for when that Month begins.

How can we do that if the Month Branch calculations are symbolic... The answer is that they are not. As we can see explained there and in all other places related to Solar Terms, the calculation for them is based on the Suns longitude. And simpler way to say that is that its based on the length of the day during the year.

Lets present it in more simple way.

We have Zi Branch. To know when Zi Branch starts we look at the 2 Solar Terms that make it.
That are:

21.Heavy Snow大雪 
22.Winter Solstice, Dongzhi Festival冬至

This is very precise, so much that we can calculate when the month starts with accuracy of a second if we want to. Nothing symbolic about it, its the position of the Sun in the sky.

So:
Zi Month Branch = "21.Heavy Snow大雪  " + "22.Winter Solstice, Dongzhi Festival冬至 "

So for now we know, if we calculate this 2 Solar Terms we will know that Zi Branch will start and end.

How do we calculate the Solar Terms. Looking at the table from HK Observatory it seems that is some very exact calculation, as they are showing them with the exact minute they will change.

The answer is that we use the Suns ecliptical longitude(Suns relative position to Earth).
That means that the Solar Term 22.Winter Solstice, Dongzhi Festival冬至 will always start with the Winter Solstice in the northern hemisphere.

The key here is that they aren't just connected, or near each other, we use the Solstice to say to the minute(or even second) when that will happen.

The previous Solar Term is 15 degrees before that with the idea of Heavy Snow and the day being just a little longer.

In the other hemisphere all that is inverted. The Winter Solstice is in June 21, its the shortest day and its a colder day in relation to the Summer.
So the question becomes... We have Zi Rat branch, that shows contraction and all other images related to Water. Should that be in the shortest and coldest day in the year, or it should be in the longest day in the middle of Summer like it would be in the other hemisphere without inversion?

Because even if we think its fine Zi Rat branch to be in the middle of Summer, then comes the next problem. To calculate when it is we use the Solar Terms. And the Solar Terms for Zi Rat branch are calculated based on the Winder Solstice. And that is in June in the other hemisphere...

Then on the other question, should we take our position like we are looking at the Earth from a distance and aren't on it. In my view no, as none of this calendars will make any sense outside of the Earth. In Venus the year is shorter then the day, if we are looking the Earth from Venus, calculating the year the way we do now, will be silly.

So the place we are in gives us the calculations we use. If we aren't on it the calculations will be very different. And they won't be more accurate, will just be different.

Overall this are long and messy topics, I get the idea that all this is symbolic, but if we use premade calculators that doesn't matter. Yet if we want to make calendar or calculator ourselves it becomes very important as that is the info we use to make it. : )
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: fan on September 13, 2019, 05:13:15 PM
What about from ZWDS point of view, do you reach the same conclusion with Bazi reading?
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Gmuli on September 13, 2019, 06:04:57 PM
The Lunar Calendar is not using the Solar Terms, its using the position of the Moon instead. Since New Moon and Full Moon are the same days/nights for both hemispheres there is no need for any changes in the month branch.

Well, if we have to be very technical about it, it isn't just lunar, its lunisolar, so the position of the Sun does matter somewhat. But in practice its only related to the leap month and that is once every 3-4 years, so in practice it isn't directly influencing the month branches in different way in the hemispheres.

Of course, that can only work if we consider ZWDS is based on the Lunar calendar as I do. If we think we should use Solar for it, then Solar Terms again come in and we get to the previous explanation.

All this is related and connected to the Math we use to calculate the months. As I said before I'm not currently inverting the month branch for people born in the other hemisphere, so in practice it matters only if we are interested in how the calculations go and why it makes sense to invert them logically.

At the end logic matters little if we lose accuracy. And so far it seems the more accurate approach is not to invert the month branch. At least in my experience(can see it in the other forum where we looked at a lot of examples for that).
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 06:47:00 PM
@Han

I understand what you mean. Its a good info. Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 06:50:05 PM
@Gmuli

Maybe someday next generation need research on it. But so far from my studi case in southern hemisphere, my analyst not match with real situation also like i said from high level chart become low level chart just because of month changing. Especially im using traditional analyst and month branch very important for me.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 06:58:45 PM
What about from ZWDS point of view, do you reach the same conclusion with Bazi reading?
Do you mean for bazi analyst same conclusion with zwds? Or you ask about lunar or solar calender?
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: fan on September 13, 2019, 07:21:51 PM
I mean you can cross check the chart with ZWDS and compare it with your Bazi reading.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 07:36:54 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 13, 2019, 08:00:13 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: BillionaireboyLam on September 14, 2019, 03:49:38 AM
The Lunar Calendar is not using the Solar Terms, its using the position of the Moon instead. Since New Moon and Full Moon are the same days/nights for both hemispheres there is no need for any changes in the month branch.

Well, if we have to be very technical about it, it isn't just lunar, its lunisolar, so the position of the Sun does matter somewhat. But in practice its only related to the leap month and that is once every 3-4 years, so in practice it isn't directly influencing the month branches in different way in the hemispheres.

Of course, that can only work if we consider ZWDS is based on the Lunar calendar as I do. If we think we should use Solar for it, then Solar Terms again come in and we get to the previous explanation.

All this is related and connected to the Math we use to calculate the months. As I said before I'm not currently inverting the month branch for people born in the other hemisphere, so in practice it matters only if we are interested in how the calculations go and why it makes sense to invert them logically.

At the end logic matters little if we lose accuracy. And so far it seems the more accurate approach is not to invert the month branch. At least in my experience(can see it in the other forum where we looked at a lot of examples for that).

@Gmuli
The Chinese calendar 农历, uses both 24solar terms as well as the 28 phases(Chinese Astrology) of the Moon.  BaZi is based on this basis it is both considering solar term's (Sun), and Lunar Terms(Moon Phases).
These two are combined in the Chinese Calendar as well as in BaZi.

Interesting enough the 24 solar term's is the closest thing Chinese Astrology, has in relation to Western Astrology.
Check out this old post by @TenVirtues

https://fivearts.info/fivearts/index.php?topic=13177.msg139121#msg139121
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Gmuli on September 14, 2019, 04:33:11 AM
There are 2 chinese calendars.
There is Solar Calendar, based on the 24 Solar Terms. That is what most bazi calculators are on.
There is also Lunisolar Calendar that is based on the position of the Moon somewhat and since that will make the year uneven it has leap months from time to time.

Easy way to recognize them, the Solar Calendar has the year start either 3 or 4 february. The Lunar can start a lot different then that.

The post you linked is the 24 Solar Terms in the Solar Calendar. Interesting by itself, but again - that is just in the Solar Calendar.

Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Gmuli on September 14, 2019, 04:42:06 AM
I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time. Will stop with my role in the topic here. : )
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: BillionaireboyLam on September 14, 2019, 08:32:49 AM
There are 2 chinese calendars.
There is Solar Calendar, based on the 24 Solar Terms. That is what most bazi calculators are on.
There is also Lunisolar Calendar that is based on the position of the Moon somewhat and since that will make the year uneven it has leap months from time to time.

Easy way to recognize them, the Solar Calendar has the year start either 3 or 4 february. The Lunar can start a lot different then that.

The post you linked is the 24 Solar Terms in the Solar Calendar. Interesting by itself, but again - that is just in the Solar Calendar.

The 万年历 and 农历 track the 24 solar terms as well as the 28 chinese phases of the Moon. These are the calendar that bazi is based on so i was referring to them.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: rainmaster on September 14, 2019, 09:57:52 AM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: BillionaireboyLam on September 14, 2019, 10:23:54 AM
I think people tend to forget that nature balances itself out.
Like during summer in northern hemisphere is when the Earth is farthest away from the Sun.
While Summer in the Southern Hemisphere is closer to the Sun.
Yet Southern Hemisphere actually have cooler Summers. This is because the Southern Hemisphere has more water then Northern Hemisphere.
This is how nature self balances.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 14, 2019, 10:53:38 AM
@rainmaster

Thank you for join this topic and give your experience. :)
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 14, 2019, 11:03:26 AM
I think people tend to forget that nature balances itself out.
Like during summer in northern hemisphere is when the Earth is farthest away from the Sun.
While Summer in the Southern Hemisphere is closer to the Sun.
Yet Southern Hemisphere actually have cooler Summers. This is because the Southern Hemisphere has more water then Northern Hemisphere.
This is how nature self balances.
So maybe when they(ancient people) do observation, they just focus on astronomy first like earth, sun, moon and other planets. After the calender already build, they do adjusment with season for they country. So whatever the season in northern and southern hemisphere. Bazi not focus on season but they build 5element, 12 chinese zodiac, and 8character(bazi) based on constellation/ observation on earth, planet, sun and moon.

What i know about chinese astrology, chinese astrology based on western astrology in the first time.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: TianQi on September 14, 2019, 11:25:20 AM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 14, 2019, 01:31:12 PM
@TianQi

Thank you for comment in this thread. Im appriciate it. Hope i can learn from all of the member.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Axis on September 14, 2019, 04:20:34 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: BillionaireboyLam on September 15, 2019, 04:34:57 AM
The Lunar Calendar is not using the Solar Terms, its using the position of the Moon instead. Since New Moon and Full Moon are the same days/nights for both hemispheres there is no need for any changes in the month branch.

Well, if we have to be very technical about it, it isn't just lunar, its lunisolar, so the position of the Sun does matter somewhat. But in practice its only related to the leap month and that is once every 3-4 years, so in practice it isn't directly influencing the month branches in different way in the hemispheres.

Of course, that can only work if we consider ZWDS is based on the Lunar calendar as I do. If we think we should use Solar for it, then Solar Terms again come in and we get to the previous explanation.

All this is related and connected to the Math we use to calculate the months. As I said before I'm not currently inverting the month branch for people born in the other hemisphere, so in practice it matters only if we are interested in how the calculations go and why it makes sense to invert them logically.

At the end logic matters little if we lose accuracy. And so far it seems the more accurate approach is not to invert the month branch. At least in my experience(can see it in the other forum where we looked at a lot of examples for that).

@Gmuli,
I don't know where you getting your information from, i'm honestly really confused and scratching my head. When you say the Chinese have a Solar Calendar and Lunar Calendar, it was confusing to me.
When you are mentioning the Solar Calendar, i think you are mentioning the Gregorian Calendar which is not Chinese.
The 24 solar term's are tracked in the 农历 or Lunar Calendar. The Solar calendar also called 公厉 is the Gregorian Calendar it is not a Chinese Invention.
All Modern bazi software converts your 公厉(Solar Calendar) birthday into Lunar 农历 for you.


The Chinese never had a "Solar Calendar", The Chinese 10,000 year Calendar, Farmers Almanac are all Lunar/Solar.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: Axis on September 15, 2019, 09:37:22 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: anton8888 on September 16, 2019, 03:55:11 PM
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Jia   Bing  Wu   Bing
Wu   Wu   Chen Chen

LP : start from
Ji   Geng    Xin    Ren
Si    Wu     Wei    Shen

@anton8888
Nice chart, self punishment
I think your chart match with your conditions  LOL
every move you looks like to make mistakes  :P

 ;D I really curious if Wu Chen and Bing Chen can make something good.  ;D
Whatever it is, take it. No need to complain.  ;D
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: j27945 on September 17, 2019, 06:12:26 PM
My 2 cents..

It not your affinity yet to help this person. If it your affinity, even a simple gua is suffice. ok for u to tell the dob time. I'll plot and take a look.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: weekian on September 18, 2019, 02:51:09 PM
The solution is pretty simple I guess...
You could compare the southern bazi method vs traditional bazi with other birth chart reading techniques such as ZWDS or maybe western astrology, the one with greater similar result / in line with those other methods should be the correct one don't you think so?
Please confirm your findings @windwheel
as I'm also curious with the accuracy of southern bazi method for people born in southern hemisphere..
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 18, 2019, 04:05:26 PM
The solution is pretty simple I guess...
You could compare the southern bazi method vs traditional bazi with other birth chart reading techniques such as ZWDS or maybe western astrology, the one with greater similar result / in line with those other methods should be the correct one don't you think so?
Please confirm your findings @windwheel
as I'm also curious with the accuracy of southern bazi method for people born in southern hemisphere..
Hi @weekian

Thank you for join this topic. Im really appriciate it.

From my case study and my research, its not match with the situation if i change month branch (also from my knowledge). My teacher also my grandteacher still using normal branch not changing month when someone at southern hemisphere.

I have few example from my teacher who is important people in indonesia. If i change this month, his chart from high grade chart become low grade chart. If low grade chart how they can become important people in indonesia?

Even for normal case with low grade chart case study if i change the month it will become high grade  chart and the truth is they just become driver at gojek indonesia.

Month branch is parents pillar. If i change this month branch so parents pillar will be affected, example from whole chart his yongshen at parents pillar and indicate wealthy or powerfull person of parents. But if i change month branch it will change 180 degree. This is from my case study of my friends which i know about everything their life.

I ask this to forum because i wanna know the reason from astronomy, so i can argue my technical analyst or my reading to my client if they compare me with another (who has know a bit about bazi). If they dont know about bazi they will not compare it.

Another example  is luck pillar, when you change luck pillar too. It will change everything, from good luck become bad luck, from bad luck become good luck. Maybe sometimes will get same result if you changing or not changing but the result not consistent if changing month branch and luck pillar.

If i compare with zwds reading, zwds has 12 palace which one do you want to study? Health, spouse, happiness? Or even career and wealth has different palace? So how i can compare with zwds reading? Which side do you want to study in zwds? I used flying star/sihua zwds not sanhe method. So i focus on which palace do you want to study, not for grade chart. Bazi In my humble opinion more easy to see grade chart and general luck so changing month it will get big impact in reading.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: weekian on September 18, 2019, 04:21:27 PM
@windwheel

What I'm saying is that,,

You don't need to change anything for the zwds chart,

You only need to compare the natal chart and LP from both
traditional bazi and southern bazi method against the zwds natal chart and the zwds decade luck to see which method (southern bazi or traditional) has the most similar result with the zwds. The one with greater similarity should be the correct one, no? You could argue using this logic with your future customers to proof that one of the method is superior than the other since it is more in line with other methods without discrepancies such as zwds, astrology, tuvi maybe if you know such method..

Btw, I know 2 well known bazi masters in Indonesia who uses southern bazi method, one of them has plenty case studies using important indonesians such as actors, presidents, etc and according to his technique it has great accuracy in predicting their important life events.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 18, 2019, 04:44:40 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: fan on September 18, 2019, 05:23:34 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 18, 2019, 05:28:54 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: fan on September 18, 2019, 05:30:23 PM
Anyway I'm thinking this, just my wild imagination, what if the only popular person that get the month branch changed? Maybe it's because of their karma, etc. So from the low grade chart it will become a high grade chart by changing the month branch. I think this is very possible, lol.
Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 18, 2019, 05:37:52 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: blackswan on September 18, 2019, 09:12:34 PM
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Title: Re: Changing month branch
Post by: windwheel on September 18, 2019, 11:06:07 PM
@blackswan

Thank you for join this topic.

In my humble opinion, both system has strength and weakness. So depend on i think. :)