five arts forum

Chinese Five Arts => 3. Art of Life (Birthchart Analysis) => Topic started by: Kanli on July 06, 2018, 01:32:53 AM

Title: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Kanli on July 06, 2018, 01:32:53 AM
I’m wondering if anyone can share the proper method for adjusting the month pillar for people born in the Southern Hemisphere? Since the seasons are opposite, the month branch is adjusted 6 months forward or backwards, and it doesn’t matter which direction since the 12 branches divide evenly. But how do you arrive at the month stem? Do you adjust the month stem forward or backwards?

Btw I’ve already read this article against adjusting for Southern Hemisphere: http://9starki-4pillarsbazi-fengshui-heluo.com/feng-shui-for-southern-hemisphere-24-solar-terms-二十四節氣/

Doing charts without adjusting for southern hemisphere has accuracy no better than a coin toss, so I want to at least try it with adjustment.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: ren on July 06, 2018, 03:26:55 AM
Hello Kanli,

Their have been a few post on this subject. Please try to do a search on the subject or search the recent post of Gmuli and / or Ren.

Please share result of your research.

Thanks,

ren
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Kanli on July 06, 2018, 03:40:17 AM
I already searched and found no clear cut answer. Some suggest adjusting both the stem and branch 6 months forward, while some only adjust the branch. Having 1 element off is a big deal, and I’m not sure which one to use. Hopefully an expert can chime in.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: bokeksiansu on July 06, 2018, 01:17:23 PM
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Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: RapaNui on July 06, 2018, 05:05:24 PM
Doing charts without adjusting for southern hemisphere has accuracy no better than a coin toss, so I want to at least try it with adjustment.
Hi Kanli,
do you change pillars also when you must do the reading for man who lives on desert and on the ocean ? In theese cases you have also much of Fire Qi or Water Qi.
 ???
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: chary on July 06, 2018, 07:35:17 PM
This method is not working. Wasting time.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Gmuli on July 06, 2018, 08:01:22 PM
Quote
Doing charts without adjusting for southern hemisphere has accuracy no better than a coin toss, so I want to at least try it with adjustment.


Many peoples approach to Yi jing is based on coin toss. Works very well.

About the hemispheres... Well, its same reasoning as True Solar Time.
We adjust Wu horse for Noon(peak of light) in the hour, same way we adjust Wu horse for Summer Solstice(peak of light) in the year.
Nothing to do with what element is "more", just following  yin/yang cycles in nature.

In that sense, when we adjust for True Solar Time we adjust the whole Pillar, not just the branch. Makes sense to do the same for the other hemisphere in theory.
More info around the forum.

Don't have any practical experience with southern charts, however, so before taking some approach, may want to test it thoroughly.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Kanli on July 06, 2018, 10:28:44 PM
Doing charts without adjusting for southern hemisphere has accuracy no better than a coin toss, so I want to at least try it with adjustment.
Hi Kanli,
do you change pillars also when you must do the reading for man who lives on desert and on the ocean ? In theese cases you have also much of Fire Qi or Water Qi.
 ???

My guess is that you use the season wherever the desert or ocean is located. I agree that there is more fire or water qi, but the season also has a disctinct energy independent of the landscape. Don’t u feel hornier during the spring, and lazier during the winter?
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Kanli on July 06, 2018, 10:32:09 PM
Quote
Doing charts without adjusting for southern hemisphere has accuracy no better than a coin toss, so I want to at least try it with adjustment.


Many peoples approach to Yi jing is based on coin toss. Works very well.

About the hemispheres... Well, its same reasoning as True Solar Time.
We adjust Wu horse for Noon(peak of light) in the hour, same way we adjust Wu horse for Summer Solstice(peak of light) in the year.
Nothing to do with what element is "more", just following  yin/yang cycles in nature.

In that sense, when we adjust for True Solar Time we adjust the whole Pillar, not just the branch. Makes sense to do the same for the other hemisphere in theory.
More info around the forum.

Don't have any practical experience with southern charts, however, so before taking some approach, may want to test it thoroughly.

What I mean by coin toss is that the accuracy is about 50%. Yijing is different, since u are tossing the coins with a question in mind.

What you said about adjusting the whole pillar makes sense. Something I’ll have to test out.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Kanli on July 06, 2018, 10:33:03 PM
[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]

Where you from @Kanli ?

USA, but have family in Australia.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: RapaNui on July 07, 2018, 03:58:00 PM
My guess is that you use the season wherever the desert or ocean is located. I agree that there is more fire or water qi, but the season also has a disctinct energy independent of the landscape. Don’t u feel hornier during the spring, and lazier during the winter?
The season (Month Pillar) is Qi from Heaven so from outside of Earth and it depends on the position of Earth in its orbit.
Do you think that Qi coming from outside of Earth is another for northern hemisfere and another for southern hemisfere ?
 8)
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Gmuli on July 07, 2018, 06:52:47 PM
My guess is that you use the season wherever the desert or ocean is located. I agree that there is more fire or water qi, but the season also has a disctinct energy independent of the landscape. Don’t u feel hornier during the spring, and lazier during the winter?
The season (Month Pillar) is Qi from Heaven so from outside of Earth and it depends on the position of Earth in its orbit.
Do you think that Qi coming from outside of Earth is another for northern hemisfere and another for southern hemisfere ?
 8)

Interesting... Yet from what I have seen all calculators out there seem to adjust the hour pillar based on the time zone of the country.
I would think if the Qi was so detached from real processes around, the time zone wouldn't matter, Qi is same everywhere as it comes from outside, there shouldn't be any adjustment, all should use Chinese time.

The other approach, where we do True Solar Time adjustment, to synchronize Wu horse branch with the time when Sun is at its highest position in the sky, suggest we are trying to fit the movement of the branches to real movement around us. Light does come from the Sun, that doesn't mean it is same everywhere, as country on the other site of the Earth where it will be dark, will have Zi rat as hour pillar.

So - nothing wrong to use Chinese time if we think Qi from heaven is universal.
Nothing wrong to use clock time if we think what we see is what we should use.
Also no problem to adjust for our view of nature cycle by using True Solar TIme adjustment and position Wu horse branch when Sun is highest in the sky.

But positioning Wu horse at the position when Sun is highest in the sky(what True Solar Time adjustment does) and saying that month branch comes from outside so its same everywhere, seems contradicting to me.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: RapaNui on July 07, 2018, 09:04:56 PM
So - nothing wrong to use Chinese time if we think Qi from heaven is universal.
The season (Month Pillar) and the time (Hour Pillar) are two different cases.
Did you notice that in the chart are TWO groups of pillars? We have (Day Pillar=>Hour Pillar) and (Year Pillar=>Month Pillar).
Day Pillar is NOT depend on Year Pillar and it is calculated differently.
Year Pillar (and of course Month Pillar) is connected with the orbit of Earth when Hour Pillar is connected with the rotation of Earth.
So... Month Pillar depends on the position in the orbit of Earth when Hour Pillar depends on the "position" in the day time at the chart's place (so it need seek True/Real Solar Time).
 8)
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Kanli on July 07, 2018, 10:20:13 PM
My guess is that you use the season wherever the desert or ocean is located. I agree that there is more fire or water qi, but the season also has a disctinct energy independent of the landscape. Don’t u feel hornier during the spring, and lazier during the winter?
The season (Month Pillar) is Qi from Heaven so from outside of Earth and it depends on the position of Earth in its orbit.
Do you think that Qi coming from outside of Earth is another for northern hemisfere and another for southern hemisfere ?
 8)

The Qi from Heaven hits the earth at different angles so some parts of the earth gets hit first, which means it is no longer the same quality of qi. You shine a flashlight at 10 meters vs 100 meters and there is a difference in intensity of light. The northern hemisphere gets more direct qi at summer, while the qi “takes longer” to reach the southern hemisphere. By logic, if it “takes longer”, then the qi will be offset a certain amount.

So you are right that it is the same Qi. But who’s to say that Qi doesn’t change while it travels to different hemispheres? The basic principle of yijing is that “everything changes”.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Gui on July 08, 2018, 12:07:17 AM
Season relates to earth aspect
Heaven propagates earth propagates man
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Gmuli on July 08, 2018, 12:48:02 AM
So - nothing wrong to use Chinese time if we think Qi from heaven is universal.
The season (Month Pillar) and the time (Hour Pillar) are two different cases.
Did you notice that in the chart are TWO groups of pillars? We have (Day Pillar=>Hour Pillar) and (Year Pillar=>Month Pillar).
Day Pillar is NOT depend on Year Pillar and it is calculated differently.
Year Pillar (and of course Month Pillar) is connected with the orbit of Earth when Hour Pillar is connected with the rotation of Earth.
So... Month Pillar depends on the position in the orbit of Earth when Hour Pillar depends on the "position" in the day time at the chart's place (so it need seek True/Real Solar Time).
 8)

Very difficult to make bazi apps without being aware how the stems/branches are calculated in the solar calendar... ; )

Hour pillar Stem is calculated based on Day Pillar stem.
Month pillar Stem is calculated based on Year Pillar Stem.

Hour and Month pillar branches are NOT connected to day or year pillar stem directly.

Hour pillar branch is calculated based on the current time and that is different depending on our location of earth.
Peach blossom branches fall around sunset/sunrise, though that isn't as accurate as it is for month branch.

Month pillar branch is calculated based on the apparent Sun longitude, creating the season.

Is Month branch based on Earths orbit?
No its not.
Its based on the seasons. However the best way to calculate seasons today is to use Suns apperent longitude.

So on 90 degrees of Suns longitude we have the end of  9.Seeding millet 芒種
with the begining of 10.Summer maximum(solstice)夏至.
This is made in this way not because 90 degrees is some universal degrees when Wu horse branch is suppose to be, this is made in this way because at 90 degrees we have Summer Solstice.
And that is what we keep and work to preserve. And that is the reason we invert the branches in the other hemisphere.


So while it is based on the apparent Sun longitude, it is based on it so it could be connected to Earths seasons it isn't based on it because 90 degrees have some meaning outside of that that is same everywhere we are and not connected to anything.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: Kanli on July 08, 2018, 12:51:24 AM
Season relates to earth aspect
Heaven propagates earth propagates man

I read from Rudolf Steiner that the seasonal energy comes from the “breathing” of the earth. If there is a correlation between western and Chinese metaphysics, then what you said makes sense.
Title: Re: Month stem for southern hemisphere bazi
Post by: anton8888 on July 09, 2018, 10:26:48 AM
This method is not working. Wasting time.


Spot on by @chary
Won't work on me also.

As if they try to find another recipee when standard recipee not working.
Instead of creating new recipee, they create new mess with some kind of "weird" taste.