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Online Gmuli

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #15 on: September 13, 2019, 04:19:57 PM »
    Lets look at the Solar Term dates from Honk Kong observatory for 2021.
    http://www.weather.gov.hk/gts/astronomy/Solar_Term.htm
    We should probably notice that the Solar Term that shows the start of Yin Tiger month branch, as well as the start of the year is in 3th February and not 4th.
    (have to change it to 2021 to see)
    Spring commences   3    / 2   22:59

    It also shows a very exact time, to the minute for when that Month begins.

    How can we do that if the Month Branch calculations are symbolic... The answer is that they are not. As we can see explained there and in all other places related to Solar Terms, the calculation for them is based on the Suns longitude. And simpler way to say that is that its based on the length of the day during the year.

    Lets present it in more simple way.

    We have Zi Branch. To know when Zi Branch starts we look at the 2 Solar Terms that make it.
    That are:

    21.Heavy Snow大雪 
    22.Winter Solstice, Dongzhi Festival冬至

    This is very precise, so much that we can calculate when the month starts with accuracy of a second if we want to. Nothing symbolic about it, its the position of the Sun in the sky.

    So:
    Zi Month Branch = "21.Heavy Snow大雪  " + "22.Winter Solstice, Dongzhi Festival冬至 "

    So for now we know, if we calculate this 2 Solar Terms we will know that Zi Branch will start and end.

    How do we calculate the Solar Terms. Looking at the table from HK Observatory it seems that is some very exact calculation, as they are showing them with the exact minute they will change.

    The answer is that we use the Suns ecliptical longitude(Suns relative position to Earth).
    That means that the Solar Term 22.Winter Solstice, Dongzhi Festival冬至 will always start with the Winter Solstice in the northern hemisphere.

    The key here is that they aren't just connected, or near each other, we use the Solstice to say to the minute(or even second) when that will happen.

    The previous Solar Term is 15 degrees before that with the idea of Heavy Snow and the day being just a little longer.

    In the other hemisphere all that is inverted. The Winter Solstice is in June 21, its the shortest day and its a colder day in relation to the Summer.
    So the question becomes... We have Zi Rat branch, that shows contraction and all other images related to Water. Should that be in the shortest and coldest day in the year, or it should be in the longest day in the middle of Summer like it would be in the other hemisphere without inversion?

    Because even if we think its fine Zi Rat branch to be in the middle of Summer, then comes the next problem. To calculate when it is we use the Solar Terms. And the Solar Terms for Zi Rat branch are calculated based on the Winder Solstice. And that is in June in the other hemisphere...

    Then on the other question, should we take our position like we are looking at the Earth from a distance and aren't on it. In my view no, as none of this calendars will make any sense outside of the Earth. In Venus the year is shorter then the day, if we are looking the Earth from Venus, calculating the year the way we do now, will be silly.

    So the place we are in gives us the calculations we use. If we aren't on it the calculations will be very different. And they won't be more accurate, will just be different.

    Overall this are long and messy topics, I get the idea that all this is symbolic, but if we use premade calculators that doesn't matter. Yet if we want to make calendar or calculator ourselves it becomes very important as that is the info we use to make it. : )

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #16 on: September 13, 2019, 05:13:15 PM »
    What about from ZWDS point of view, do you reach the same conclusion with Bazi reading?

    Online Gmuli

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #17 on: September 13, 2019, 06:04:57 PM »
    The Lunar Calendar is not using the Solar Terms, its using the position of the Moon instead. Since New Moon and Full Moon are the same days/nights for both hemispheres there is no need for any changes in the month branch.

    Well, if we have to be very technical about it, it isn't just lunar, its lunisolar, so the position of the Sun does matter somewhat. But in practice its only related to the leap month and that is once every 3-4 years, so in practice it isn't directly influencing the month branches in different way in the hemispheres.

    Of course, that can only work if we consider ZWDS is based on the Lunar calendar as I do. If we think we should use Solar for it, then Solar Terms again come in and we get to the previous explanation.

    All this is related and connected to the Math we use to calculate the months. As I said before I'm not currently inverting the month branch for people born in the other hemisphere, so in practice it matters only if we are interested in how the calculations go and why it makes sense to invert them logically.

    At the end logic matters little if we lose accuracy. And so far it seems the more accurate approach is not to invert the month branch. At least in my experience(can see it in the other forum where we looked at a lot of examples for that).

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #18 on: September 13, 2019, 06:47:00 PM »
    @Han

    I understand what you mean. Its a good info. Thank you very much.

    Offline windwheel

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #19 on: September 13, 2019, 06:50:05 PM »
    @Gmuli

    Maybe someday next generation need research on it. But so far from my studi case in southern hemisphere, my analyst not match with real situation also like i said from high level chart become low level chart just because of month changing. Especially im using traditional analyst and month branch very important for me.

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #20 on: September 13, 2019, 06:58:45 PM »
    What about from ZWDS point of view, do you reach the same conclusion with Bazi reading?
    Do you mean for bazi analyst same conclusion with zwds? Or you ask about lunar or solar calender?

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #21 on: September 13, 2019, 07:21:51 PM »
    I mean you can cross check the chart with ZWDS and compare it with your Bazi reading.
    « Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 07:23:47 PM by fan »

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #22 on: September 13, 2019, 07:36:54 PM »
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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #23 on: September 13, 2019, 08:00:13 PM »
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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #24 on: September 14, 2019, 03:49:38 AM »
    The Lunar Calendar is not using the Solar Terms, its using the position of the Moon instead. Since New Moon and Full Moon are the same days/nights for both hemispheres there is no need for any changes in the month branch.

    Well, if we have to be very technical about it, it isn't just lunar, its lunisolar, so the position of the Sun does matter somewhat. But in practice its only related to the leap month and that is once every 3-4 years, so in practice it isn't directly influencing the month branches in different way in the hemispheres.

    Of course, that can only work if we consider ZWDS is based on the Lunar calendar as I do. If we think we should use Solar for it, then Solar Terms again come in and we get to the previous explanation.

    All this is related and connected to the Math we use to calculate the months. As I said before I'm not currently inverting the month branch for people born in the other hemisphere, so in practice it matters only if we are interested in how the calculations go and why it makes sense to invert them logically.

    At the end logic matters little if we lose accuracy. And so far it seems the more accurate approach is not to invert the month branch. At least in my experience(can see it in the other forum where we looked at a lot of examples for that).

    @Gmuli
    The Chinese calendar 农历, uses both 24solar terms as well as the 28 phases(Chinese Astrology) of the Moon.  BaZi is based on this basis it is both considering solar term's (Sun), and Lunar Terms(Moon Phases).
    These two are combined in the Chinese Calendar as well as in BaZi.

    Interesting enough the 24 solar term's is the closest thing Chinese Astrology, has in relation to Western Astrology.
    Check out this old post by @TenVirtues

    https://fivearts.info/fivearts/index.php?topic=13177.msg139121#msg139121

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #25 on: September 14, 2019, 04:33:11 AM »
    There are 2 chinese calendars.
    There is Solar Calendar, based on the 24 Solar Terms. That is what most bazi calculators are on.
    There is also Lunisolar Calendar that is based on the position of the Moon somewhat and since that will make the year uneven it has leap months from time to time.

    Easy way to recognize them, the Solar Calendar has the year start either 3 or 4 february. The Lunar can start a lot different then that.

    The post you linked is the 24 Solar Terms in the Solar Calendar. Interesting by itself, but again - that is just in the Solar Calendar.


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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #26 on: September 14, 2019, 04:42:06 AM »
    I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time. Will stop with my role in the topic here. : )
    « Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 04:45:56 AM by Gmuli »

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #27 on: September 14, 2019, 08:32:49 AM »
    There are 2 chinese calendars.
    There is Solar Calendar, based on the 24 Solar Terms. That is what most bazi calculators are on.
    There is also Lunisolar Calendar that is based on the position of the Moon somewhat and since that will make the year uneven it has leap months from time to time.

    Easy way to recognize them, the Solar Calendar has the year start either 3 or 4 february. The Lunar can start a lot different then that.

    The post you linked is the 24 Solar Terms in the Solar Calendar. Interesting by itself, but again - that is just in the Solar Calendar.

    The 万年历 and 农历 track the 24 solar terms as well as the 28 chinese phases of the Moon. These are the calendar that bazi is based on so i was referring to them.

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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #28 on: September 14, 2019, 09:57:52 AM »
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  • Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #29 on: September 14, 2019, 10:23:54 AM »
    I think people tend to forget that nature balances itself out.
    Like during summer in northern hemisphere is when the Earth is farthest away from the Sun.
    While Summer in the Southern Hemisphere is closer to the Sun.
    Yet Southern Hemisphere actually have cooler Summers. This is because the Southern Hemisphere has more water then Northern Hemisphere.
    This is how nature self balances.

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    Re: Changing month branch
    « Reply #29 on: September 14, 2019, 10:23:54 AM »
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