Author Topic: how to define Jia Zi - beginning of 60 years cycle without paper calendar?  (Read 372 times)

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Offline padma

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  • Dear fellows,

    i have very interesting question on which none of teachers of Chinese metaphysics can answer to me until now.

    Question is how to define Jia Zi - beginning of 60 years cycle without paper calendar by using planets movements?   
     
    Its so not scientifically just to refer on Huángdì that he started Jia Zi cycle in one moment and we need just to continue to count infinitely this in row. 
    Majority of Chinese astrologers to say that origin of Yang Wood Solstice , which is not only consisted of Yang Wood Rat time on Yang Wood Rat day on Yang Wood Rat month on Yang Wood Rat year, but also manifestation of Grand alignment that is referring to collocation of 5 stars in solar system at Rat zodiac .
    According to Chinese tradition, the first year of the Yellow Emperor was 2698 B.C.E., so he introduced a counting system based on this.  An alternative system is to start with the first historical record of the 60-day cycle from March 8, 2637 B.C.E
    I checked both possible years , so there is no  Grand alignment of 5 planets.

    Does anybody know what is truth of this topic?

    I will be very thankful to anyone!

    Online Gmuli

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  • Dear fellows,

    i have very interesting question on which none of teachers of Chinese metaphysics can answer to me until now.

    Question is how to define Jia Zi - beginning of 60 years cycle without paper calendar by using planets movements?   


    We use virtual planets, other then Month branch, Hour branch and 28 lunar mansions, the rest won't fit to a movement of a real planet or star(especially Jupiter to the year branch).
    We have been in great lengths into that in the past, by the way in other forums.

    Offline padma

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  • Dear fellows,

    i have very interesting question on which none of teachers of Chinese metaphysics can answer to me until now.

    Question is how to define Jia Zi - beginning of 60 years cycle without paper calendar by using planets movements?   


    We use virtual planets, other then Month branch, Hour branch and 28 lunar mansions, the rest won't fit to a movement of a real planet or star(especially Jupiter to the year branch).
    We have been in great lengths into that in the past, by the way in other forums.


    Please, Gmuli let me know where to read this discussion on other forums, or can you please explain me essence of this topic? :'(

    Online Gmuli

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  • Dear fellows,

    i have very interesting question on which none of teachers of Chinese metaphysics can answer to me until now.

    Question is how to define Jia Zi - beginning of 60 years cycle without paper calendar by using planets movements?    


    We use virtual planets, other then Month branch, Hour branch and 28 lunar mansions, the rest won't fit to a movement of a real planet or star(especially Jupiter to the year branch).
    We have been in great lengths into that in the past, by the way in other forums.


    Please, Gmuli let me know where to read this discussion on other forums, or can you please explain me essence of this topic? :'(


    Basically, it would depend what book or material you are currently interested in. As there are a lot of theories how the movements of the planets are reflected in the year pillar. The usual one is that its connected to a movement Jupiter makes.

    Problem there is that its very unlikely that a movement like that can be with the exact same length as the movement of the Earth around the Sun in a year(12). Because if its even just a day off, that means that in few thousand years already will be a year off, as we need very exact values to be able to keep them up for thousands of years.

    Some people add the precesion of the equinoxes in this, some people look at movement of Jupiter in relation to another planet or to the Sun. And there are many other ways and it will be really long to go into, but the short answer is that none of them fits with the accuracy that would be needed to stay on it even just a thousand years, even less so for 4 thousand.
    (topic is in Jlims forums, but the 2 forums still have problems with each other, so I shouldn't link it, if you stumble upon it I think it was in the southern bazi hemisphere topic).

    Month branch is different. Since its created directly form Suns ecliptical longitude in the Solar Calendar, it will always be reflecting the Suns position perfectly(as perfect as we can calculate it, of course).
    Hour Branch is more or less same, with or without true solar time(more closer to it with it).
    And 28 lunar mansions are just changing one a day, since we can set the movement of the Moon to 28 days average that fits too.

    The rest, there are many ways to look at it, but none seems to fit the planets. So here comes the idea of "virtual planets". A way to say - "We know there is a cycle of 12/10 years here, we use it all the time we can see it in the world around, yet we don't know where it comes from, so we assign a planet to it and use it like that". Going into western astronomy will create discrepancies, similar to how western medicine seems different to TCM in the organ functions and ideas sometimes, but that is fine.
    « Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 03:30:14 AM by Gmuli »

    Offline padma

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  • Dear fellows,

    i have very interesting question on which none of teachers of Chinese metaphysics can answer to me until now.

    Question is how to define Jia Zi - beginning of 60 years cycle without paper calendar by using planets movements?   


    We use virtual planets, other then Month branch, Hour branch and 28 lunar mansions, the rest won't fit to a movement of a real planet or star(especially Jupiter to the year branch).
    We have been in great lengths into that in the past, by the way in other forums.


    Please, Gmuli let me know where to read this discussion on other forums, or can you please explain me essence of this topic? :'(


    Basically, it would depend what book or material you are currently interested in. As there are a lot of theories how the movements of the planets are reflected in the year pillar. The usual one is that its connected to a movement Jupiter makes.

    Problem there is that its very unlikely that a movement like that can be with the exact same length as the movement of the Earth around the Sun in a year(12). Because if its even just a day off, that means that in few thousand years already will be a year off, as we need very exact values to be able to keep them up for thousands of years.

    Some people add the precesion of the equinoxes in this, some people look at movement of Jupiter in relation to another planet or to the Sun. And there are many other ways and it will be really long to go into, but the short answer is that none of them fits with the accuracy that would be needed to stay on it even just a thousand years, even less so for 4 thousand.
    (topic is in Jlims forums, but the 2 forums still have problems with each other, so I shouldn't link it, if you stumble upon it I think it was in the southern bazi hemisphere topic).

    Month branch is different. Since its created directly form Suns ecliptical longitude in the Solar Calendar, it will always be reflecting the Suns position perfectly(as perfect as we can calculate it, of course).
    Hour Branch is more or less same, with or without true solar time(more closer to it with it).
    And 28 lunar mansions are just changing one a day, since we can set the movement of the Moon to 28 days average that fits too.

    The rest, there are many ways to look at it, but none seems to fit the planets. So here comes the idea of "virtual planets". A way to say - "We know there is a cycle of 12/10 years here, we use it all the time we can see it in the world around, yet we don't know where it comes from, so we assign a planet to it and use it like that". Going into western astronomy will create discrepancies, similar to how western medicine seems different to TCM in the organ functions and ideas sometimes, but that is fine.

    Thank you so much , Gmuli!
    Have you heard something about  Grand alignment of 5 planets and JiaZi?

    Online Gmuli

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  • Dear fellows,

    i have very interesting question on which none of teachers of Chinese metaphysics can answer to me until now.

    Question is how to define Jia Zi - beginning of 60 years cycle without paper calendar by using planets movements?   


    We use virtual planets, other then Month branch, Hour branch and 28 lunar mansions, the rest won't fit to a movement of a real planet or star(especially Jupiter to the year branch).
    We have been in great lengths into that in the past, by the way in other forums.


    Please, Gmuli let me know where to read this discussion on other forums, or can you please explain me essence of this topic? :'(


    Basically, it would depend what book or material you are currently interested in. As there are a lot of theories how the movements of the planets are reflected in the year pillar. The usual one is that its connected to a movement Jupiter makes.

    Problem there is that its very unlikely that a movement like that can be with the exact same length as the movement of the Earth around the Sun in a year(12). Because if its even just a day off, that means that in few thousand years already will be a year off, as we need very exact values to be able to keep them up for thousands of years.

    Some people add the precesion of the equinoxes in this, some people look at movement of Jupiter in relation to another planet or to the Sun. And there are many other ways and it will be really long to go into, but the short answer is that none of them fits with the accuracy that would be needed to stay on it even just a thousand years, even less so for 4 thousand.
    (topic is in Jlims forums, but the 2 forums still have problems with each other, so I shouldn't link it, if you stumble upon it I think it was in the southern bazi hemisphere topic).

    Month branch is different. Since its created directly form Suns ecliptical longitude in the Solar Calendar, it will always be reflecting the Suns position perfectly(as perfect as we can calculate it, of course).
    Hour Branch is more or less same, with or without true solar time(more closer to it with it).
    And 28 lunar mansions are just changing one a day, since we can set the movement of the Moon to 28 days average that fits too.

    The rest, there are many ways to look at it, but none seems to fit the planets. So here comes the idea of "virtual planets". A way to say - "We know there is a cycle of 12/10 years here, we use it all the time we can see it in the world around, yet we don't know where it comes from, so we assign a planet to it and use it like that". Going into western astronomy will create discrepancies, similar to how western medicine seems different to TCM in the organ functions and ideas sometimes, but that is fine.

    Thank you so much , Gmuli!
    Have you heard something about  Grand alignment of 5 planets and JiaZi?

    Yea, the situation there is messy as well.
    First problem, is that the way the calendar currently functions we can't have 4 Jia/Zi pillars.
    As the month pillar will never have stem Jia on Zi branch/month, if the year is Jia/Zi.
    (the month stem will always be Bing).

    In that sense, its easy to think the whole idea just isn't possible and that is what I thought at first. Yet as @RapaNui noticed, if the year started with Zi rat, instead of Yin tiger, then it becomes possible.
    And there seems to be the idea that was the case many years ago.

    First step is done - we know its possible to have 4 Jia/ Zi pillars(although not now, but some time ago). Next step, we have to figure out if the planets are always in alignment at it.

    Next step is to find a date then, when if the year starts with Zi, there would be 4 Jia/Zi pillars. And the nearest date seems to be
    17 December 1923 at 00:30 hour.

    So the question then, becomes, are the planets aligned on that date.
    And the answer is - yea. Here is the map for that date:



    Its not perfect, so as I said you can't use it to figure out the calendar. But there is definitly something there. I have to clarify that the idea we were looking for was Sun, Moon and Jupiter at the Zi part of the sky. And that seems to be nearly there(Moon isn't, but the rest is).

    All that looking with the Trigrams overlayed on the map, then Kan trigram and Zi branch would be the lowest part of it.
    And logically Sun will always be around there in Zi month, while Jupiter will be there for the past few thousand years, but as we can see already is drifting off, since its orbit isn't exactly 12 years.

    In short - there seems to be something like this, yes. But it isn't perfect and counting on it for the year branch, could work somewhat, but there are much better ways.

    Online Gmuli

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  • To add... I was thinking on the more practical aspect... So can we find out when the year begins using the stars and planets.

    It really depends how accurate we want to be and how far we want it to work forward.

    Now, year will always start with Yin Tiger. And Yin Tiger in the Solar Calendar, will always start with 立春 lìchūn . And that is always 315-330 degree of the Suns ecliptical longitude.
    So this part is covered, when Sun hits 315 degree longitude the year begins. That is how we make our calculators as well.
    And that is the month branch/solar terms.

    The second question, can you know if the year is Zi.
    And working with Jupiter, we know that is somewhat possible, yet we can check what accuracy it can provide.
    So lets check facts about Jupiter:

    https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/jupiterfact.html
    Sidereal orbit period (days) 4,332.589 365.256 11.862
    Tropical orbit period (days) 4,330.595 365.242 11.857

    Now, we can see that its not 12 years, exactly, yet its very close to it.
    So that suggests that we can use Jupiter to figure out the year branch, as long as we are not expecting some incredible accuracy.
    Lets check how it will work.

    We have 11.862 difference between them. That means that every 12 years, it will drift of with 0.148, so every 120 years, it will drift of with 1.48.
    Suggesting that it will be more then a year off already.

    So we can use it in spans that aren't very big, if you use it for 60 year spans for example, it will be very close.
    But if you want to use it for thousands of years, it will have very little relevance to the actual info that we get.
    Also suggesting that the fact its close to the Sun in the 1923 example is just a coincidence, in practice it has made many full circles from the 1.48 every 120 years difference before it got to that position.

    And that makes a circle and leave us again at the initial answer. You can use the month branch with Suns longitude, and the hour branch. Can also use the 28 lunar mansions somewhat. The rest is not reliable enough, it will be good for some years, but not for thousands of years, not even for hundreds. So "virtual stars" are applied.  Its not the actual movement of Jupiter, but its the Jupiter that we are using.


    « Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 09:18:43 PM by Gmuli »

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