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Offline marsboy

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  • Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « on: January 17, 2021, 09:00:44 PM »
    Hi all,

    Seemed like info on special structure is scarce.
    Does below qualify a special chart ?

    Ren Wu Gui Wu
    Zi Chen Hai Chen

    -essentially without any fire & metal at all even in hidden stem
    -read from kevinchan that there is a 2 god structure of "predominantly" 2 elements. in this chart, its basically all Earth & Water equally in Heaven & Earth and only 3 wood in hidden... does this qualify the "predominance of 2 elements" ?

    everyone talks on DM strength either strong or weak.. is there "moderation or normal" on the scale..
    Wu born in Hai is supposedly weak, but this Wu is strongly rooted in both day & year pillar..
    on top of that, earth is supposedly present all year round so how much is earth actually affected by season ?
    conventionally it is said earth thrive in summer (fire produce earth) but isn't this sound cook bookish ?

    plus it is said earth thrives in seasonal transition..
    what is the definition of the transition period ? like last 15 days of spring to first 15 days of summer as example is consider transitional ??

    Offline johnyqi

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #1 on: January 17, 2021, 09:08:01 PM »
    Solid Earth trying to utilize Water (Wealth)

    I would say it needs Fire, to make the chart warmer. Wood could also help.

    But I would say that this is not a special structure.
    Five Element & Talent Analysis https://talenthero.io/blueprint

    Online scitzo

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #2 on: January 18, 2021, 12:44:23 PM »
    Hi all,

    Seemed like info on special structure is scarce.
    Does below qualify a special chart ?

    Ren Wu Gui Wu
    Zi Chen Hai Chen

    -essentially without any fire & metal at all even in hidden stem
    -read from kevinchan that there is a 2 god structure of "predominantly" 2 elements. in this chart, its basically all Earth & Water equally in Heaven & Earth and only 3 wood in hidden... does this qualify the "predominance of 2 elements" ?

    everyone talks on DM strength either strong or weak.. is there "moderation or normal" on the scale..
    Wu born in Hai is supposedly weak, but this Wu is strongly rooted in both day & year pillar..
    on top of that, earth is supposedly present all year round so how much is earth actually affected by season ?
    conventionally it is said earth thrive in summer (fire produce earth) but isn't this sound cook bookish ?

    plus it is said earth thrives in seasonal transition..
    what is the definition of the transition period ? like last 15 days of spring to first 15 days of summer as example is consider transitional ??

    Sadly, I would say, this is not a special chart. Just a pretty imbalance chart

    Online yc poon

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #3 on: January 18, 2021, 01:15:34 PM »
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    Offline RenSpb

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #4 on: January 18, 2021, 05:25:50 PM »
    Hi marsboy!

    Ren Wu Gui Wu
    Zi  Chen Hai Chen

    If two elements mostly dominate in the 4 pillars one may call it "Two Spirits" structure. Yoy may check metal element as a regulating god or bridge for this chart.
    However Zi Chen is a part of Water frame so I suggest that water is more prominent then earth and this is normal Indirect Wealth chart structure.

    Quote
    what is the definition of the transition period ? like last 15 days of spring to first 15 days of summer as example is consider transitional ??
    About 15 days of the second harf of each transition months which are Ox, Wei, Xu and Chen.

    Best,
    @RenSpb

    Offline marsboy

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #5 on: January 19, 2021, 01:07:06 AM »
    Hi marsboy!

    Ren Wu Gui Wu
    Zi  Chen Hai Chen

    If two elements mostly dominate in the 4 pillars one may call it "Two Spirits" structure. Yoy may check metal element as a regulating god or bridge for this chart.
    However Zi Chen is a part of Water frame so I suggest that water is more prominent then earth and this is normal Indirect Wealth chart structure.

    Quote
    what is the definition of the transition period ? like last 15 days of spring to first 15 days of summer as example is consider transitional ??
    About 15 days of the second harf of each transition months which are Ox, Wei, Xu and Chen.

    Best,
    @RenSpb


    Do you have links and more info on these "Two spirits" structure.
    I think you mean the partial "three harmony combination" of Zi-Chen yes it's strong water and 6 wealth stars without a single resource star which by conventional interpretation is not good.

    But joey yap books mentioned something alone the lines of missing elements and it is not bound by normal reading and subjected to different interpretation but fall short of saying further as it is so called "Advanced Bazi".

    How do i know when is actually the last 15 days of the transitional month. In this case, the birthday is 9 november 1988 which by normal lunar calendar is "chor yat" or 1st day of winter.. basically it was still Xu month 1-2 days ago.
    so can earth be defined as strong even though in the chart it is categorized as Hai month.
    basically the debate on the "cut-off".

    Offline marsboy

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #6 on: January 19, 2021, 02:06:03 AM »
    I'd managed to find info but sadly couldn't read Chinese.
    Any sifu can help translate ?

    https://www.sohu.com/a/424169865_442912

    it's basically called 兩神成象.
    someone also mentioned 我生之局.

    Offline RenSpb

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #7 on: January 19, 2021, 02:42:12 AM »
    Quote
    Do you have links and more info on these "Two spirits" structure.
    I think you mean the partial "three harmony combination" of Zi-Chen yes it's strong water and 6 wealth stars without a single resource star which by conventional interpretation is not good.
    Unfortunately I have no links, maybe some of the forum users will add. There are certain rules for such structures, one of which we do not take into account the Hidden Heaven Steams. There are other rules, but this needs to be considered different examples of charts.

    Quote
    But joey yap books mentioned something alone the lines of missing elements and it is not bound by normal reading and subjected to different interpretation but fall short of saying further as it is so called "Advanced Bazi".
    When there two elements are missing in the chart, then an element imbalance usually occurs. However, the chart structure might be in dynamic balance and does not require regulation of the elements, but this is an advanced BaZi level estimation.

    Quote
    How do i know when is actually the last 15 days of the transitional month. In this case, the birthday is 9 november 1988 which by normal lunar calendar is "chor yat" or 1st day of winter.. basically it was still Xu month 1-2 days ago.
    so can earth be defined as strong even though in the chart it is categorized as Hai month.
    basically the debate on the "cut-off".
    This partly depends on transition month. If there transition e.g. from Chen to Si, then earth element is strong at the beginning of Si month because of summer (fire season). But Hai month is not the case. One can also look at HHS in branches to check earth qi at the beginning of month.

    Offline marsboy

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #8 on: January 20, 2021, 01:42:19 AM »
    Quote
    Do you have links and more info on these "Two spirits" structure.
    I think you mean the partial "three harmony combination" of Zi-Chen yes it's strong water and 6 wealth stars without a single resource star which by conventional interpretation is not good.
    Unfortunately I have no links, maybe some of the forum users will add. There are certain rules for such structures, one of which we do not take into account the Hidden Heaven Steams. There are other rules, but this needs to be considered different examples of charts.

    Thanks for the reply.
    Where do you learn bazi from ? How equal the "power/effect" of hidden stem versus Heaven/Earth ?
    Taking another example, concept of rooting as eg; does an element rooted by EB stronger than being rooted in hidden ?
    Another question would be, again from kevinchan site, the idea of Pure element vs Rooted.
    Rooted is more general as in any same element below the Heavenly. But pure element mean the element is directly below as in the same pillar. Reasonably this is "better" ?
    Also does being rooted more than 1 times made the element much stronger as in my example, Wu is both rooted in Day & Year pillar, not including the ones in hidden stem.
    Reason for asking being, the chart is strong in water apparently, and also have a Zi-Chen combination to power up the water so there is a concern on overflooding the soil. But at same time, earth itself is apparently not weak either as not being unable to withstand the hydro.

    Quote
    But joey yap books mentioned something alone the lines of missing elements and it is not bound by normal reading and subjected to different interpretation but fall short of saying further as it is so called "Advanced Bazi".
    When there two elements are missing in the chart, then an element imbalance usually occurs. However, the chart structure might be in dynamic balance and does not require regulation of the elements, but this is an advanced BaZi level estimation.

    Indeed that's my point. Missing elements by ordinary reading is catastrophic, like in the eg given, there's no resource star or element at all to support the DM or the abundant wealth stars.

    Quote
    How do i know when is actually the last 15 days of the transitional month. In this case, the birthday is 9 november 1988 which by normal lunar calendar is "chor yat" or 1st day of winter.. basically it was still Xu month 1-2 days ago.
    so can earth be defined as strong even though in the chart it is categorized as Hai month.
    basically the debate on the "cut-off".
    This partly depends on transition month. If there transition e.g. from Chen to Si, then earth element is strong at the beginning of Si month because of summer (fire season). But Hai month is not the case. One can also look at HHS in branches to check earth qi at the beginning of month.

    Again , earth is present all year round. the entire "accepted scheme" of earth strong or weak in seasons are based solely on the idea of "fire produce earth" thus earth is strong in summer. and people said winter froze the earth. personally i'm skeptical towards this idea as one could argue, fire too strong will burn and dry up the earth like in drought.
    it's like the normal idea of fire burn wood, but Bing fire being sun in fact is beneficial to the growth of plants and trees.
    my point is instead of not too fixated on the wu xing production/desturction cycle to gauge the actual elements interactions in the chart. But that's just my idea.
     
    « Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 01:44:04 AM by marsboy »

    Offline RenSpb

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 08:59:31 PM »
    So many questions )

    Quote
    Another question would be, again from kevinchan site, the idea of Pure element vs Rooted.
    Rooted is more general as in any same element below the Heavenly. But pure element mean the element is directly below as in the same pillar. Reasonably this is "better" ?
    Also does being rooted more than 1 times made the element much stronger as in my example, Wu is both rooted in Day & Year pillar, not including the ones in hidden stem.

    There are different degrees of rooting. Element can have rooting in the main qi, sub qi, in one pillar or neighboring pillar, interactions involving the root element in HHS like clash. There may be same element rooting or opposite polarity one, that's count too. All of these factors affect the strength of an element's rooting. This is a big topic.

    In This case Wu has rootng in main qi in the same day pillar and year pillar, that's good rooting. However here day branch rooting is considered better then in the year branch which is far from Daymaster.

    Quote
    Reason for asking being, the chart is strong in water apparently, and also have a Zi-Chen combination to power up the water so there is a concern on overflooding the soil. But at same time, earth itself is apparently not weak either as not being unable to withstand the hydro.

    Here we have Yang Earth which resists against water better (unlike Yin earth, soil). Besides Wu is rooted inside Chen that make it stronger especially when there is transformation wu and gui into fire that produces earth under certain conditions.

    Quote
    Again , earth is present all year round. the entire "accepted scheme" of earth strong or weak in seasons are based solely on the idea of "fire produce earth" thus earth is strong in summer. and people said winter froze the earth. personally i'm skeptical towards this idea as one could argue, fire too strong will burn and dry up the earth like in drought.

    Sure, season estimation is not the only method for determining the strength of the earth.
    « Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 09:17:07 PM by RenSpb »

    Offline marsboy

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #10 on: January 21, 2021, 12:23:08 AM »
    So many questions )

    Quote
    Another question would be, again from kevinchan site, the idea of Pure element vs Rooted.
    Rooted is more general as in any same element below the Heavenly. But pure element mean the element is directly below as in the same pillar. Reasonably this is "better" ?
    Also does being rooted more than 1 times made the element much stronger as in my example, Wu is both rooted in Day & Year pillar, not including the ones in hidden stem.

    There are different degrees of rooting. Element can have rooting in the main qi, sub qi, in one pillar or neighboring pillar, interactions involving the root element in HHS like clash. There may be same element rooting or opposite polarity one, that's count too. All of these factors affect the strength of an element's rooting. This is a big topic.

    In This case Wu has rootng in main qi in the same day pillar and year pillar, that's good rooting. However here day branch rooting is considered better then in the year branch which is far from Daymaster.

    Quote
    Reason for asking being, the chart is strong in water apparently, and also have a Zi-Chen combination to power up the water so there is a concern on overflooding the soil. But at same time, earth itself is apparently not weak either as not being unable to withstand the hydro.

    Here we have Yang Earth which resists against water better (unlike Yin earth, soil). Besides Wu is rooted inside Chen that make it stronger especially when there is transformation wu and gui into fire that produces earth under certain conditions.

    Quote
    Again , earth is present all year round. the entire "accepted scheme" of earth strong or weak in seasons are based solely on the idea of "fire produce earth" thus earth is strong in summer. and people said winter froze the earth. personally i'm skeptical towards this idea as one could argue, fire too strong will burn and dry up the earth like in drought.

    Sure, season estimation is not the only method for determining the strength of the earth.

    Haha yep.. i mean if your generous enough to answer, i dont mind asking more.
    Indeed, I just poured over the rooting concept with varying power; adjacency, polarity, main/sub-Qi..

    I just thought that perhaps the very strong water will overwhelm even the pretty strong earth itself but then yea, Wu is much stronger than Ji.

    As for combination of Wu-Gui, i'd read that'll only happen if the season of birth support the new element, but apparently winter will not allow Fire to exist though...

    One thing tho, DE exist in the month EB. People say this will nullify the entire pillar. I'd no clue when it said nullifying the pillar, does it mean the entire pillar with the elements and stars no longer "existed"?
    Does it even mean to the extent that we cant even see strength of DM, since the month EB cant be consider.




    Offline RenSpb

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #11 on: January 21, 2021, 08:45:35 PM »
    Quote
    One thing tho, DE exist in the month EB. People say this will nullify the entire pillar. I'd no clue when it said nullifying the pillar, does it mean the entire pillar with the elements and stars no longer "existed"?
    Does it even mean to the extent that we cant even see strength of DM, since the month EB cant be consider.

    Honestly, never heard DE in the month nullifying the pillar.
    Despite the fact that Daymaster's phase relative to the month is 10 (DE), Jue, it is in phase 3 (Guan Dai), strong force relative to the day and year branches.

    If Daymaster shows a weak stage, one look for helpers among the stages in other pillars of the chart.

    Self DE in month branch inclines a person to progress more intellectually and spiritually rather than materially.
    « Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 08:48:20 PM by RenSpb »

    Offline marsboy

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #12 on: January 22, 2021, 05:40:56 PM »
    Quote
    One thing tho, DE exist in the month EB. People say this will nullify the entire pillar. I'd no clue when it said nullifying the pillar, does it mean the entire pillar with the elements and stars no longer "existed"?
    Does it even mean to the extent that we cant even see strength of DM, since the month EB cant be consider.

    Honestly, never heard DE in the month nullifying the pillar.
    Despite the fact that Daymaster's phase relative to the month is 10 (DE), Jue, it is in phase 3 (Guan Dai), strong force relative to the day and year branches.

    Ok I think i get what you meant as in see all 4 EB. So in this case, what can be deduced overall of the DM phase "strength"? Jue + Guan Dai x2 + Tai

    If Daymaster shows a weak stage, one look for helpers among the stages in other pillars of the chart.

    Self DE in month branch inclines a person to progress more intellectually and spiritually rather than materially.

    I'd heard one be a monk if got 3-4 DE pillars.
    then what does it actually mean to have DE ? as in the stars inside no longer be considered or the element is disregarded ?

    Offline marsboy

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  • Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #13 on: January 23, 2021, 05:25:02 PM »
    八字:戊戌、癸亥、戊戌、癸亥

    大运甲子、乙丑、丙寅、丁卯、戊辰、己巳

    此水土各半,两气成象,喜其通根燥土,财命有一。然气势稍寒,所以运至丙寅,寒逢阳,运登科甲,更妙亥中甲木暗生,仕至郡守,宦途平坦。

    Anyone can clarify above quoted ?

    Via broken google translate;

    Wu Gui Wu Gui
    xu Hai   Xu Hai         

    Basically is Earth hour pillar, water day, earth month, water year and it is considered as imaging.
    However some writing said this is fake as one pillar should have 2 different elements, meaning;

    Earth Earth Earth Earth
    Water Wtr   Wtr   Wtr



    Offline vng78

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    Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #14 on: January 23, 2021, 06:51:08 PM »
    Just quick question / curiosity: did chart owner grow up with his parents? It seems the parents were often not around or have to go far away for work / business?

    five arts forum

    Re: Qualify as Special Structure Chart; 2 missing elements
    « Reply #14 on: January 23, 2021, 06:51:08 PM »
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